Bernard-Henri Lévy at Midi Libre: “There are no deliberate massacres in Gaza, there is no genocide”

Le 10 octobre 2023, Bernard-Henri Lévy au kibboutz de Kfar Aza, en Israël. Photo Benjamin Touati

Dans “Solitude d’Israël”, l’écrivain livre une radioscopie du 7 octobre. Il appelle les démocraties à aider le peuple juif à vaincre le Hamas. Entretien.

Your book “Solitude of Israel” was born in the wake of the Hamas attacks of October 7. An event "according to a new scenario", you write. What do you mean ?

We've never seen this before. Nowhere. So much savagery. Of cruelty. Women raped in such appalling conditions. And GoPro cameras on the rapists' helmets to broadcast these atrocity scenes live.

This is what makes the first singularity of October 7 ?

Yes. Al Qaeda initiated this by filming the beheading of Daniel Pearl. Then ISIS, posting images on YouTube of Westerners, on a beach, in orange wetsuits, serially beheaded. But, there, these bloody flesh brandished, facing the camera, like trophies… This young woman, Shani Look, half-naked, outraged, thrown into the back of a pick-up, jeered by a delirious crowd…hellip; And, what's more, the author of the photo, embedded in the commando of killers, receiving an international prize… Honestly, it’s unheard of.

"Everything there is unforgettable, very raw stories from survivors who tell me atrocious things"

What are the images from your stay in Israel that you cannot get out of your mind ?

I arrive on October 8th. And on the 10th I entered the martyr kibbutz of Kfar Aza. Everything there is unforgettable. The houses were blown away as if by an earthquake. Traces of blood. The body of a terrorist, under a vague tarpaulin, one leg covered in ants. A vegetable shed with, in one corner, remains of bodies that a team from the NGO Zaka will try to reconstruct in order to give them a human and Jewish burial. And then stories from survivors, very raw, who tell me atrocious things. The book is born there, at this moment, like an oath that I make to those who ask me not to forget, to bear witness…

Are you afraid at this point ?

For the hostages, yes, whose suffering I feel Hamas will prolong. For the IDF reservists who I see pouring in from all over the world and some of whom I know will, once again, die in combat. And then these innocent people, in Gaza, whom Hamas leaders saw, and still see, as a shield and a weapon. "Our weapon is the blood of our people", said the political leader of Hamas from his comfortable villa in Doha – and that made my blood run cold.

You also castigate those who have qualified their solidarity with Israel.

Nuanced is a weak word. Israel's allies, at the beginning, said: "we demand the release, unconditionally, of the hostages". Five months later, they said: "we demand an end, unconditionally, to the fighting". Biden, for example, has decided. Whether he liked it or not, he chose to spare Hamas; to save what remains of his troops and his command; and, therefore, to let him strengthen his hold on Palestine.

"What is disproportionate is Israel's loneliness"

Many Western countries are questioning, and criticizing, Benjamin Netanyahu's strategy in Gaza. Do you understand them ?

Why not ? But what I don't understand is that they don't offer an alternative strategy. Look carefully. They lecture General X. They summon General Y. But that’s all. And for good reason: the Israelis are applying the strategy that they themselves applied in Afghanistan or Mosul. I was in Mosul, where I filmed a long documentary. I was in Afghanistan, commissioned, at the time, by President Chirac and Prime Minister Jospin. Well I say that the Israelis apply the same strategy. Rather better, in fact. And paying much more attention to what military jargon, in a horrible word, calls collateral damage.

Israel’s response is therefore not disproportionate ?

What is disproportionate is his solitude. Because I repeat to you, in Afghanistan, to break the command structures of Al Qaeda, there was a strong international coalition. In Mosul, to defeat Daesh, there was a host of allies fighting shoulder to shoulder with Iraq. This is step 3. We are dealing with Hamas which, because it relies on a real axis of allies (Iran, Qatar, Turkey, Russia, perhaps China) is even more formidable than Al Qaeda and Daesh. However, paradoxically, there is no one left. Zero coalition. Israel is alone.

You cannot deny the massacres of civilians in Gaza…

"Massacres" assumes that we aim at them on purpose. But this is not the case. There are no deliberate massacres in Gaza. There is no genocide. I have covered a lot of wars. I have documented genocides. I have done, for your colleagues in Le Monde, reports on Darfur, Angola, and so on. Never, in any of the wars I have covered, have I seen an army warn, organize evacuation corridors, distribute maps allowing civilians to take shelter & ;ndash; and, in passing, renounce the effect of surprise which is, in a war, an asset…

"I would rather see France in support of Israel as it was, 9 years ago, at the time of the battle of Mosul, in support of Iraq"

France, through President Emmanuel Macron, has expressed reservations about Benjamin Netanyahu's response. Is this difficult for you to admit ?

It’s a fact. I would rather see France in support of Israel as it was, 9 years ago, at the time of the battle of Mosul, in support of Iraq. But that’s how it is.

Several aid workers from World Central Kitchen were killed by an Israeli strike after distributing food. The Hebrew State pleads error…

Of course, yes, the error. And an error all the more tragic since the World Central Kitchen was, precisely, the NGO with which Israel intended to work increasingly to deliver humanitarian aid. But it’s still an error. And I am amazed to see the United States step into the breach to curse Israel and demand a ceasefire. Has Biden forgotten that his army made the same mistake, exactly the same, when, on August 29, 2021, shortly after leaving Kabul, an erroneous strike pulverized a civilian convoy, killing 7 children ? The The difference is that it took weeks for the Pentagon at the time to recognize “a tragic error.” While it took Israel three days to investigate, understand and dismiss the officers responsible…

What would be the conditions to achieve lasting peace ?

The defeat of Hamas. But total. No possibility of return. Without the possibility of retraining, under another name, as one of the branches of the PLO. Because then everything would start again. The pogroms: Hamas clearly said that October 7 was only the beginning. The intra-Palestinian war: see how Hamas tortures or liquidates anyone, even today, who gets in its way. And, of course, Iran, the great puppeteer of all this drama: it is biding its time…

So you are not in favor of a ceasefire ?

Yes. But to negotiate the release of the hostages. Or to increase humanitarian aid. But this is precisely what Hamas refuses. He wants a ceasefire
" sustainable " that is to say, in fact, definitive and allowing him to boast about the theme: "we won; we obtained, through barbarity, what others had never obtained through negotiation… ". 

Is the two-state solution the most reasonable ?

Yes. But without Hamas. And with a Palestinian leadership finally understanding that there is no other solution than sharing the land. The sharing. Not a Palestinian state that would go “from the sea to the Jordan”.

Can we imagine this outcome as long as Benjamin Netanyahu is in power ?

Benjamin Netanyahu is a false problem. All Israelis know that his days in power are numbered. You have, as we speak, a monster demonstration preparing in Tel Aviv and demanding its departure.

"These are not bands of so-called "pro-Palestinian" thugs, and supposedly " resistant", who will intimidate me"

The conflict has repercussions in France where the number of anti-Semitic acts has sharply increased…

Yes. And this, from October 8! As if the monster pogrom had also been perceived as good news for us. As if it was something that we could and should celebrate. What did they say about others who, from the first day, welcomed an "act of resistance", a "response" to "the Israeli occupation" ?

Anti-Semitic tags were discovered a few months ago in our region, in the Gard and in Toulouse, where you will be this Sunday. Is the condemnation of the public authorities up to the task ?

Yes. There is this wave of anti-Semitism, that’s for sure. But the institutions hold. The prefects and mayors are impeccable. The police don't let anything through.

You do not, however, spare certain parties politicians, LFI in particular. Did they leave the Republican arc on October 7 ? 

LFI, you can ask them any question, on any subject, they will answer you “Gaza”, they are only obsessed with “Gaza” ;. With, at the same time, and this makes the thing almost comical, a crass ignorance of political and field realities.

At the same time, the National Rally supported Israel. Can we accept this support ?

There is no « accept » or « refuse ». The real question that arises is whether his attitude is the result of a profound change or not. For my part, I don't believe it. And I am even convinced that a profound change on a subject like anti-Semitism cannot be decided just like that, on a whim, or by decree from the leadership of a political party.

Demonstrations tried, in other cities, to disrupt your visit…

Yes. But France is my country. I move around as I see fit. And these are not bands of supposedly "pro-Palestinian" thugs, and supposedly " resistance fighters, who will intimidate me. As you know, I will be this Sunday in Toulouse, which is one of the cities in France where we know what Resistance means. And, believe me: I wouldn’t have missed this meeting for anything in the world.

What do you expect from this evening in Toulouse ?

Helping Jews, friends of Jews, non-Jews friends of Israel, feel a little less alone. The moment is tough. Criticisms, each more unfair than the last, are mounting from all sides. But I believe that we must fight and that the truth will triumph. Otherwise, I wouldn’t write.

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