Pierre Moscovici facing the readers of Midi Libre: to stop the drift of public finances, “we need a policy of efforts”

However, he is keen to distinguish: “We know that the situation of all communities is not the same. We have a municipal bloc, within which we have large communities whose situation is relatively prosperous. There are Regions that are in an intermediate situation. And Departments, whose situation is very complicated. Both because social needs are glaring and because resources are affected. So, call on the communities, yes, but to the extent of their responsibilities, no more, no less. And not all the communities. The Department, which is the level of solidarity, must not be impacted, especially in a period that may become more economically difficult."

Politics: "A very special situation"

“I don't see any other solution now than to mark a turning point in relation to the rise in our deficits. And that has nothing to do with being right-wing or left-wing. Because when you get into debt, you tie your own hands. For a France that has to repay 70 or 90 billion euros of debt burden per year, it is impossible to invest in ecology, digital transformation, innovation, education. Every euro that we spend on debt is a euro lost for public service, public investment, the economy. It's the most useless public expenditure there is. And it ends up strangling you."

That said, Pierre Moscovici notes that politics must also reassert its rights:“If we go into detail, it is more political: is the distribution between savings and taxation the right one, is this one more suitable, is this economy the most appropriate… That is the parliamentary debate that will shed light on it."

And this, he believes, in a "very particular political situation. After a dissolution that not many people understood, in truth, which did not give birth to an obvious clarification. I am not saying this to cause controversy, but for two months we had a caretaker government that was unlikely to take new measures. The Prime Minister was appointed on September 15, he had two weeks to form his government, and two weeks for the budget."

And when we had just learned that the Élysée, the National Assembly and the Senate would ultimately not increase their allocation for next year, Pierre Moscovici commented: “They heard the message, they understood that this would be poorly accepted in the current situation and they agreed to cap their budget”. Before noting another similarity between the right and the left: « I am always very careful to speak before talking about an austerity budget when we are going to have 56.3% of public spending in GDP, 8% more than the average for the eurozone. We have a preference for public spending, protection, a more collective social system than the others. And that, the right and the left share in a certain way."

Ecological transition: “Providing the necessary means to combat global warming”

With the necessary budgetary restrictions, won't the environmental cause be too impacted ? Walter Bignon, deputy for ecological transition in the commune of Marseillan (Hérault), is worried about it: “Should we fear that state support such as the Green Fund or local investment support grants diminish ? », he questions.

« The Court of Auditors, as you may not know, is extremely ecological. And we will be increasingly so: I am announcing that we will now produce, annually, in September, a report on the ecological transition, which will be published, precisely, at the time when we are discussing the finance law in order to properly address, in fact, the two subjects mentioned by Michel Barnier, financial debt and ecological debt, together.

And we will have a chamber dedicated to that. The 2024 annual public report was devoted to climate change adaptation policies, so it is a prism that irrigates all our work,” first answers Pierre Moscovici.

“It is precisely because climate change is not just another problem, but it is not a crisis, it is a challenge for many generations. And if we have this awareness of the future of future nations, we do not say to ourselves that we can skimp on policies that fight against global warming. We must give them the necessary means and that is also why we must get into debt", he continues.

Getting into debt ? "If you have a debt that keeps growing, then your room for maneuver to put in place considerable investments, that is tens of billions of euros for the future, is reduced to nothing. That is my slogan: let's get out of debt to invest in our future. If we do not have the capacity to invest, we do not have sovereignty."

Then, the first president of the Court of Auditors, outgoing "a little" of its role, urges parliamentarians to be attentive in the debates: “I don't think it's on ecology that we need to make major cuts.”

Sophie Scantamburlo-Contreras, who founded SCOP3, a company with a circular economy mission, supports the University of Montpellier on the master's degree in ecological transition: “Students wonder if when an audit is carried out by the court on the expenditure and investments made with local authorities and in particular the university, do you worry about the share environmental ?"

“Yes, I have placed this question at the heart of our work. We can go further and ask ourselves, for example, whether we should remove part of the ecological debt from the calculation of the debt. In reality, I don't think so”

She also questions Pierre Moscovici on the creation of a “green” VAT.

“Can we encourage the circular economy ?”
“Yes. On the tax tool, such as VAT, I am more cautious, because the regional audit chambers work more on the expenditure part than on the tax part. I am very wary of VAT, of the multiplication of intermediate rates."

Christophe Bonnet, president of the Capeb du Gard, mentions MaPrimR’enov and the cost of this centralized platform in Paris that should be "regionalized."

“The Court of Auditors conducted an audit that put it at 2 billion euros. Just because a mechanism contributes to the ecological transition does not necessarily mean it is good in itself, we suggested greater decentralization. Its mechanism has been quite successful, but it is reformable. With MaPrimeRénov, there are improvements to be made that can contribute to savings.”

Transport: “Major works must be honored”

The pressing question of the cost of transport was also put to Pierre Moscovici. With, for example, the high-speed line between Bordeaux and Toulouse which will cost 14 billion: could its funding be threatened by budgetary restrictions??

Or does the Court consider that it is an investment for the future, an important subject for the territories ?

"We could, but there is no control over this subject, it is always from our work that there are recommendations. If there has been a commitment from the State, it must be kept. Major works, if they are undertaken, decided, if there are measures already in place, the State's word must be honored", he replies.

"Afterwards, we can also stagger them over time. But we do not call into question such a structuring project for a question of budgetary urgency, the same is true for projects like Lyon-Turin. The State's word is a strong word and there are massive investments."

But how should we consider these elected officials who want, for example, an airport without necessarily regional coherence, are there any possible recommendations ?

"I'll answer you with a pirouette, I came by train. And also, when we have a territory, the train is a more ecological mode of transport, we must favor it and not overdevelop the plane. Many regional airports are not very profitable", nevertheless indicates the first president of the Court of Auditors.

Another major issue was discussed with Pierre Moscovici. That of the health sector and the structural deficit of social security. Max Hermet, director of the Propara neurological rehabilitation center in Montpellier, warns about health establishments "in great financial difficulty", despite the funding, while the question of the Social Security deficit arises.

“For the expenses, I first mentioned the excesses: local authorities for half, the State for the other half and Social Security much less”, he explains to the readers of Midi Libre.

“But we have expenses because social needs are increasing with a deficit of 18 billion this year. We need to look into fraud, the figures are massive. There are also problems with the management of social spending, the relationship between the private and public sectors, and the need to regain control of health insurance spending, which has increased significantly, and not always effectively. It is not a question of reducing the resources of health establishments but of managing them better, that is the challenge."

The role of the Court of Auditors: "A report, you can discuss it, it is a public debate"

The role of the Court of Auditors was of course addressed in this face to readers. Sandrine Bignoli, president of FCE34 (women business leaders), interviewed Pierre Moscovici.